447- Learn the Business to Lead Technology w/ Dr. Michael Barr

Doug Camin: Welcome back to today's episode of You've Been Heard, the podcast

for IT leaders. I'm Doug Camin, your host. And today I have Dr. Michael Barr,

the chief information officer of the Guidance Center with me. Welcome to the

show, Mike.

Dr. Michael Barr: Thanks, I appreciate it. Good morning.

Doug Camin: Good morning. So here we are. And you do a couple of different

things. You're coming to our listeners here with, a background as an active CIO.

you've been working at the university level as a, professor, in different

spaces. And, you even started some of your own consulting business to help other

IT leaders too. So can you tell us a little bit about your history, where you

are, what you're doing now and how you got here?

Dr. Michael Barr: Well, I like to stay active. yeah. So I've been here at the

Guidance Center in Leavenworth, Kansas, just outside of Kansas City for a little

over a year now. So getting close to a year and a half actually, I was brought

in here initially to lead through a EHR upgrade, electronic health records

upgrade, which expanded to a lot of things, small non-profit agency, had some

struggles seeing around the corner of some of the challenges that they were

dealing with. And, so that's grown through a lot of the, things, upgrades to

firewalls and network capabilities, incorporation of new technologies went from

one EHR system to a ecosystem of about ten to fifteen tools. prior to that, I,

spent a little over a year out at the Missouri Institute for Defense and Energy.

it's a standalone research institute under the University of Missouri, Kansas

City. Really, I kind of supervise the operations and planning for about a dozen

PhD level physicists, mechanical engineers, electrical engineers, chemists. we

executed on contracts for the government, mostly the military. MM. doing things.

But we did research related to, unmanned autonomous vehicles or drones,

electronic or radio frequency, bioelectromagnetics, which is the effects of

electricity or radio frequencies on, flesh, the human body. and then we did some

research in the areas of artificial intelligence and cybersecurity and all that

stuff came after a twenty year career in the military, two years in the Air

Force, followed by eighteen in the Army between being an infantry officer and,

eventually had both hips replaced and had to make a transition somewhere. And

then, naturally I fell back towards the communications type stuff that I had

done previously in the Air Force. so a big background, it's been about eleven

years instructing at two different universities at the graduate and

undergraduate level, carried me into some different paths to help some

professional development, and then eventually culminated in getting my own

doctorate.

Doug Camin: That's a great history. So, thank you for your service. I bet that's

a long history in the military there as well. So one of the things we have

different guests that guests have all sorts of different backgrounds. So I'm

going to just plug that out for a second and some people go in the military,

you're there for like one, two or two tours, what is it, four years or six years

or eight years or something like that. But, you had, twenty plus years in. and

you made the transition out. you are successful, in the private sector. Now,

what things did you carry from the military? What things brought you or did you

get from there that really made you prepared to be successful in the private

sector?

Dr. Michael Barr: Well, a lot of it was probably the diversity of experience.

most people go in, they spend twenty years doing the same thing over and over

and over. fortunately, I was given the opportunities to transition from one

thing to the next. And because I continued to develop myself and get education.

And, there's a thing in the military, you don't volunteer for anything.

Doug Camin: Mhm.

Dr. Michael Barr: But I went against that. And, if I had my roadmap of things

that I wanted to do, and as I knocked those things off my checklist, I built the

checklist, first of all. So you gotta have a model to work from. But as I

knocked those things off the checklist, I would continually kind of update that,

I'd have a strategy for what I wanted to do next. And, between getting the

education, getting the experience, picking the jobs that maybe some people

didn't want to do and places that they didn't want to be. eventually it built

that resume for me. so initially it was technology in the Air Force and I

expanded from doing just ground based radio communications to eventually jumping

into satellite based communications. growth wanted to go and do some cool stuff.

So I jumped over to the Army and got those skills and I became an infantry

officer, leading soldiers in combat from multiple deployments. And then, as I

said, after I had my, medical issues and stuff, I transitioned over back to the

technical side and I learned the technical skills, but also understanding how

those things impacted the rest of the military, not just from my perch of being

the only technical guy or the primary technical guy in an organization. But now

understanding that I'm supporting, one thousand or five thousand soldiers, along

the way. So you've gotta understand the business aspect of what you're doing as

well. It's not just about what I'm doing and trying to introduce the next cool

toy. but making sure it supports the business and the goals of the organization.

So that's something I see with a lot of my peers is just, let's bring the next

thing to the table. The next thing that we can spend some money on and get a

capability out. But having that broad understanding of how it actually affects

the business, in the health care environment, I am not the revenue generator

here. The clinicians, the medical providers, they're the ones who bring the

funding in, but they're also the ones who improve the, treatment for clients

that we have come in. So without the business, there's no treatment for those

clients. so it's a road that we've got to walk down. And the technology is a

tool to enable and improve the treatment that we have. so that was something I

carried through was just that, wide perspective that there's a large support

structure that has to happen to make sure that the business can function. So

creating that strategic perspective over what we're trying to accomplish with

technology.

Doug Camin: Mhm. Yeah. Great. Thank you for sharing. So my background of CIO,

myself, IT leader and, you mentioned about EHR and, an EMR systems and those

types of things, I have a background in government IT and in, nonprofits,

specifically in the mental health space as well. And, so the challenges that you

face and like, as you're telling the story here about the various pieces, the

tools you bring forward. and I think it's really critical to think about how you

are not the revenue generator, you are part of the puzzle that supports the

people that are making the revenue, in order to keep everything going and to

meet the services that you want to deliver to the community and that mission

that you're bringing forward, because again, a lot of these spaces, the work

that we're doing is, the people who are delivering those services, the

clinicians and those folks, they are highly educated, not highly paid,

passionate about the work that they're doing. And, everyone views it. And the

work itself is a mission to serve our communities. and that's really critical

because those needs are they're often unmet or they're challenging to get that.

so how do you fit that in to make that it, make that happen is always the

challenge when you're in those nonprofit spaces. And so, I'm going to touch on

this, because you mentioned where you're located, which is Leavenworth. So like,

Levenworth Kansas is known for like one big thing, like a federal supermax

prison there or something like that there.

Dr. Michael Barr: There's a bunch of prisons.

Doug Camin: Okay, I couldn't remember if it was just one. And now, I'd love to

have you share and tell for our listeners a little bit about, the work you're

doing or that you had been doing in academia, so you've been in a couple

different places. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Dr. Michael Barr: So, initially, we go back eleven or twelve years. I finished

my master's degree and then, the department chair for the business or the

management program at, Austin Peay State University in Tennessee, where I was

stationed at the time. I was at Fort Campbell. And, just a shot down the road to

get to the Austin Peay campus. I started getting the certifications in the

background in the IT side of the house that they were interested in having me

instruct a management information systems course for the undergrad program. so

that's how I got kickstarted. again, my interest in various things volunteering,

is I kind of expanded that out to purely business courses within the management

program. I even at one point instructed an Excel course to undergrads. And then,

as I worked on that, that's where I worked for probably seven or eight years or

only at the Austin Peay State University. And I was able to transition to a

remote or remote courses or online courses when I moved over to, Fort

Leavenworth. But as I was doing that, I had the opportunity to again, I

volunteered and we were coming into Covid concerns and started seeing the

lockdown stuff. And, the university started trying to push more of their courses

or more of their instructors to go through quality matters training and then

getting the courses certified for quality by external peer reviewers to go

through this process, make sure we're providing the best quality of education

for students who were not sitting in the classroom. so I got involved in that,

went through the training. I was asked to actually certify two of my courses. By

that time I had started instructing at the graduate level. I finished my

doctorate. But once I got involved in the quality Matters program, they're like,

hey, now that you're able to do this, would you be interested in helping out at

the K through twelve level also? And they're like, we got these cool

certifications where, because your experience and your education, we, we're

offering this opportunity to become a master peer reviewer, which is essentially

the team chair where you become the lead on a three person team for some

external quality review of courses. So I was like, okay, well, let's go through

the training and do it. So I did my first course and we certified that course.

And then they're like, hey, by the way, we've got the K through twelve stuff

that we're looking for people to. Terrific. Okay. It's not killing me here, but,

go on and add more things. But then that expanded to they also were interested

in quality reviews and master peer reviewers for publications. So I started

doing publication reviews for higher education and K through twelve, textbooks

and that type of stuff. So I kept walking down this road and getting more and

more things. And then I actually led a couple of my own courses through that

peer review process. So, both of those were actually at Austin Peay State

University. but through that process, I found that I was not just certifying

courses for quality in business or technology areas, but some of the courses I

was certifying were talent management, accounting, economics, software lifecycle

development, some of those things that maybe, were like peripheral to what I was

doing in my, professional life and definitely peripheral to what I was doing in

academia itself. But, I had finished my doctorate recently, but I was

instructing a couple classes. I was doing master peer reviewing. So again,

leading the teams and certifying courses from organizations across the country.

This wasn't just like local things. This is getting on calls and being

certifying, leading three or four different teams at a time to certify these

courses as they're trying to get bulked up for the lockdown.

Doug Camin: Mhm.

Dr. Michael Barr: So it was a great opportunity. And then eventually, I picked

up the University of Saint Mary was looking for instructors and certain areas

that I had now had a niche in and, was able to jump over to their MBA program.

And, primarily my course of instruction was the MBA capstone course, which was

strategic management and ethics, which fell right in line with where I was

looking to go in the future, which is right where I'm at now.

Doug Camin: Yeah. So I'm going to draw some lines here for folks, listening

here, you've got this background in business administration, doing this

coursework, putting together the courses, teaching, lots of students along the

way here and ethics in particular. So what are some of the key lessons in that

as it relates to it? So I'm going to pull this right back into it. Space. What

are the key lessons that people, leaders need to be keeping in mind, especially

as up and coming leaders as they're, making their journey in this space. from

what you've done in that realm, business ethics, business leadership, how is

that connecting into it?

Dr. Michael Barr: So I think there's a lot of lessons you learned, you cannot

solely survive in this business world, just having certifications or education

or experience, to be able to get the job, apply for the job and get the job.

Most, cyber leadership roles in general, they're going to require some level of

education, bachelor's degree, but usually more of a master's degree level.

certifications are great, but they don't tell the story on what your experience

is. I could have five years of experience. And if you're asking for a CIO role

or five years of experience, get the certification. A CISO role requires a CISSP

or something. Now pick your certification. that's the baseline, the minimum

requirement to do that. But you don't get to the table if you can just say, hey,

I've got twenty years of it experience with no education or no certification. So

as professionals continue to try and grow themselves and build them into the

position where they're looking at business, they're looking at it, whatever the

requirements are, is they have to have a combination of the three that supports

where they're going. And as you working through that development brings in other

things like being able to manage a budget. At some point, you've got to be able

to manage the money to make sure the revenue that's coming in is able to pay for

the things that you want to have. You've got to do, talent management, be able

to manage the staff. Some people struggle to get along with other people. they

end up in a leadership position and, oh, I can't go into a room and have a

conversation with somebody.

Doug Camin: Or maybe they come in with the wrong idea of what it means when they

want to interact with somebody. So there's a story I tell sometimes with guests

on the podcast and it's actually a question of, and I'll ask you this too, but

it's the what is, forty something year old me regret about twenty something year

old me as a leader and, for me, I was in IT leadership in my mid twenties, so

like I was in an IT consulting firm, I got elevated to be the director of

technical services at this, IT consulting firm. I had, ten people on my team.

And I remember at one point in time, I had a guy who just he didn't like what

was going down or how I was doing it. I mean, he did his job. It looked like he

did do his job. But I remember distinctly, the conversation in the room, sitting

in this conference room and having a department meeting. And he's like, well,

what if we don't want to do this? And I'm like, well, I'm in charge. So I'll

tell you what we're going to do. Right. and I think that's twenty six year old

me, to unilaterally declaring this is how it is because I'm the one with the

title, right? Yeah. and like forty something year old me, knows full well that

is not how you lead and, you learn those lessons and how to interact and how to

handle people, how to build the relationships with them. I mean, today that

might be a pull aside, maybe a conversation about things like look we all have

important roles. your role is no less important, and mine is no more important

than yours is. But my job is to be the person who makes the decision. So I'm

going to ask you to understand that, but I'll make sure you can be heard. My

promise to you is you're heard, but in reverse. What I am hoping to get at is

you, is that you understand that I'm the one who has to make the decision. So if

I make the decision, you were heard, but you get respect, and you respect the

fact that you're part of the team.

Dr. Michael Barr: Yeah, yeah.

Doug Camin: Yeah. So I'll turn that back on you real quick and this could be

interesting. This will be interesting because you have military history. So I

have some other friends that are in the Air Force and stuff like that. And he'll

be like, the things that people do or say or, you hear sometimes could be a

little wild. What would forty something year old you were, kind of cringe. I'll

use air quotes and say cringe G from a leadership perspective to twenty

something year old you did.

Dr. Michael Barr: Well, that's tough because twenty year old me was an

infantryman, so that was kind of like my early, twenties.

Doug Camin: Or even your early leadership.

Dr. Michael Barr: Yeah, well, so we've had discussions around here recently

about pushing initiatives forward. And I would say one of the things that I had

to learn over time that I kind of take to heart now is that things don't just

get done. And we work in a world where a lot of the staff functions, data and,

cybersecurity, they're really analytically focused. that's their mindset is

that, hey, I need to make a decision on this thing, but I can't make it unless I

have all the data. And this week, we'll wait for next week, give it a week, let

things work out. And then next week they didn't get the data. Now they're

waiting to the next week. So you get into those analytically minded people who

it's hard to budge off of something and make a decision because they don't have

all the data. So something I did learn from my early career, especially in the

infantry world, is you've got to take the information that you have, make the

best decision and move forward. I know, that's maybe not the case in a huge,

massive global project sometimes, there are a lot of aspects of things that have

to happen. But like at the tactical level, sometimes you're not going to have

all those answers. So I remember sitting in those meetings, leading those

meetings where it seems like we've been talking about this for a month now,

having weekly meetings or biweekly meetings or and we're just not pushing the

ball forward. so that was something that I remember doing when I was younger is

just waiting for that next person to come up and tell me, tell me how to do this

thing. And when you're, living and you're the senior guy in any kind of

organization and you're in the middle of combat, there's not time to wait for

that decision to be made. So that was kind of a learning under fire. But that is

something that I carry over now, is that I'm not going to have all the answers,

because there's a lot of things moving around in healthcare and behavioral

health and IT and business that you got to take the information you have

available, make the best decision, and move forward for the good of the

organization, whether they want to move forward or not. Sometimes.

Doug Camin: Mhm. I think about this just from a strictly like management

leadership perspective, but in my mind, I'm drawing a connection here to what

you just mentioned in, these combat or, very live and life or death situations

that are going on around you. And one of the things that you have to be able to

do is as a leader, I think, is create the space for your team to understand that

they can make those decisions. That decision making is okay. But from IT

leadership perspective and how you have to create a certain amount of

psychological safety for your teams to be able to have operating space to move

and feel that they'll be supported at the end. And I think that's like in your

case, when you're talking about the infantry work and those types of things, You

had the confidence that your sergeant or whoever it was that was up above you

would be like, hey, Mike, you made the best decisions in the moment. And we're

going to support that. Like, even if it didn't always work out the best, you

knew that everybody had a good understanding that we had to work with the

information we had, and we can't punish people for doing that work.

Dr. Michael Barr: Yeah, yeah. So in my organization now, the world of a

nonprofit, we have other peers who are more, I guess aligned with counties. So

they walk into the beginning of the year with a budget. there are other

corporate variations. But again, what we start with at the beginning of the year

is basically a zero start off. And what we make throughout the year is what you

get. So, trying to get the team to understand that there are things like that.

And then we walked into, when I first got here a year and a half ago, my first

month here, I had to hire my data quality specialist.

Doug Camin: Mhm.

Dr. Michael Barr: My second month here, I hired my EHR specialist. It was

ramping up for the EHR upgrade and stuff. They were just resources I didn't

have. But along the lines with that is that, the team has been given

responsibilities for different things. And unfortunately, when you're just

trying to crash everything, I can't hire people for every little task. which

where we come back to the funding, gaps at the beginning of the year, because

some people can just bring on a whole team and know what they want to do. And

that strategic plan, they follow it and they've got all the resources here. I've

had to build the team first of all, and now I'm trying to develop the team. each

individual has their own personality, got their own challenges and they got

their own, the good things they're at. But as we've worked through this. My

doctoral study was on succession planning for IT executives.

Doug Camin: Hmm.

Dr. Michael Barr: And I, find myself normally thinking about who would replace

me if something were to happen. so we've toned down some of the EHR upgrade

stuff now this where I'm starting to get back into the strategic planning and

try and put some of those pieces together and figure out who on my team replaces

me if something happens. And not everybody wants to be in that position of being

responsible, great. But at least, some people may not be capable, some people

may need five or six years of training or ten years of training before they're

able to do that. some people just may not have that, potential to do that. So

working through with my team is that's where I'm kind of at now is I'm trying to

develop them, give them the latitude to do the things. You're not always trying

to fight the fire itself. You're trying to contain the bigger fire. And

eventually we'll get to those little grass fires and stuff to put them out. But

getting my team to move from doing the tactical stuff all the time to looking at

more of the operational level of things and managing, projects and programs that

we have or initiatives that we're doing, and then coordinating and synchronizing

the team that we need to be able to support us from the clinical or

administrative side. So it needless to say, there's a lot of aspects in there

that get pulled into this when you're trying to make a decision and how you

develop somebody or you pull somebody towards a task and you help them grow.

Doug Camin: Mhm. So I want to jump to a different topic, but before we jump

there, I just left a comment that, sometimes in the small and midsize business

space here, the succession plan is just to know that if I leave or something

happens, like, yes, the team can survive for a while, but you're going to have

to go to market, like we're just not big enough to have like a deputy CIO

hanging around in the back corner that's just kind of waiting to take over, like

it hit by a bread truck tomorrow morning. so like, being realistic about it too,

is, oftentimes, so like succession to be succession planning always it

intersects with the ideas of professional development. Because I'm a huge

proponent of, personally, I think a lot of a lot of folks in the IT leadership

space really follow this mantra. Truth is, people's careers don't always exist

in our organization. like I'm going to have somebody, maybe they'll work here

three years, maybe they'll work here five years. But then if they want to go to

leadership and I'm not ready to move on, that means their next opportunity is

gonna be somewhere else. And that's totally okay. Yeah. like that's fine, and

creating that great experience from start to finish is what makes a good as a

leader, but also builds that network, builds those connections, builds that time

in, what happens in the future. I think right now I've moved, I shifted from, a

nonprofit, I'm moving into a new role, but one of the new roles that I'm moving

into has a connection back to what are the roles that I was in before because I

made good connections. so I was thinking about that the thing I wanted to shift

us to here in the last, we're probably the last five to seven minutes of our

podcast here, but, was just about, some personal background on your space. you

spent, twenty plus years in the, military space, but before that, when you were

a kid, you're growing up, were you into tech? were you like a tech kid or

something like that? Or did how did you end up in the technology space?

Dr. Michael Barr: So I grew up without a lot. Yeah. so I played sports and

everything growing up and everything. But I lost my dad when I was fifteen and,

I think I got my, technical interest from my mom.

Doug Camin: Mhm.

Dr. Michael Barr: She was always interested in taking things apart. And, out

there trying to make the phone line work and everything. Well, not the city or

county phone lines, but, it wasn't the modern age where if something breaks, you

go out and buy a new one. Mhm. So my mom became very adept at fixing electronics

and stuff. And she ended up going start starting associate's degree, went to

classes for one semester, and then just having five kids and dealing with that

situation. So, but that did lead me towards having an interest in computers

using DOS and, stuff when, when I was really young. And then, when I was in high

school, I was able to swing sort of an internship instead of going to study

hall, I would go to the, IT director and I would help them set up computers and

stuff, deploy new software and different things. So I, definitely had an

interest in that. And when I got to college, I shifted around a bunch of

different things. But I was playing basketball. And, eventually I just kind of

settled on a degree that would get me by. But then the opportunity came after I

graduated from college to go in the Air Force. And I had high enough scores that

I could be able to pick any job I wanted and.

Doug Camin: Mhm.

Dr. Michael Barr: Initially, I was going to be an airborne linguist and then

kind of came over and fell under the, ground radio communication side of the

house, working on radios and doing maintenance and helping, set the azimuth on

antennas and different things. And I got to work in an air traffic control

tower, communications and, GPS stuff. And, that fell into something that I was

comfortable with, although at a much higher level, with a level of technicality.

But, as I said, I stepped away and I got to go and, shoot things and blow things

up for a while and do that. And, when the time came, it was a naturally to fall

back to something for that period of ten years or so before I had been in

cultured with technology. so I wouldn't say I was sitting there building my own

computers and other things, but I was learning electronics.

Doug Camin: Mhm. Yeah. That's super cool that you got. So all the podcasts I've

done, it's the first time I've heard it's like, my mother got me into

electronics because my mother did this. Like, that's really a great background.

So I want to ask a little, bit of lightning round questions here and then we'll

wrap up. So what's the most important idea you wish every executive wanted to

understand about modern it. When I say every executive I mean the other

executives, not other IT executives.

Dr. Michael Barr: Yeah. So, I think it's understanding, what IT C-suite person

can bring you. I go back to what I said earlier, it's a combination of

education, certification experience and those things. But executive level

leadership needs to understand that they need to have a partner that understands

the strategic and the technical. As we've seen, throwing all of IT, all of data,

all of the EHR stuff under the chief operations officer may not get you what

you're looking for. So you have to have somebody that actually speaks the

language, but also then understands the business component or aspect of that to

make sure that that everything that is, brought into the fold, that's technology

related is able to support what they're trying to do from operational side. So,

I've seen IT fall under CEO, I've seen it fall under CFO, I've seen it, just

kind of out there on its own and do whatever and just let me know if you have

any problems or need anything. So, I think from the executive level, as they

need a partner who is able to grasp what needs to be done from both sides of the

house.

Doug Camin: Mhm. Yeah, I found it. As you think about what the strategic

importance of it is oftentimes dictates where the organization thinks that it

should report to. Yeah. so like, if it is like a strategic imperative, then you

report to the CEO. Oftentimes, if it is considered just like a function to make

sure we get other stuff done, then it's like a CEO or a CFO type of reporting

structure as well. So it's been my personal like observational experience. so

let's see if you could fix one big challenge in IT leadership tomorrow. What

would it be? I think this was relevant to you because you get to teach people or

you spent many years teaching people in business leadership and things like

that. So what have you seen?

Dr. Michael Barr: I think if I could fix anything, it's that talent development

pipeline. again, my mind comes back to a lot of different things, but I have a

significant background in education and in cybersecurity. So big challenge is

creating that, talent development process that then drives the succession

planning or vice versa, depending on how you look at it. but being able to,

prepare the talent that is coming up, right now, I've got an intern who was a

high achieving, cybersecurity student and he was an intern for me last year. I'm

like, great. But he doesn't really know a whole lot. He just graduated. I mean,

he knows what he learned from school education stuff, but he doesn't have a lot

of experience and he's never been in healthcare. So you got to build those

things into him.

Doug Camin: Mhm.

Dr. Michael Barr: My data quality specialist, he's super great with the data and

stuff, but he's never configured a switch or a router. So, just as you go

through all those things and you learn, about the people and you develop those,

I think that's the biggest challenge is making sure that the team is actually

prepared to be able to do the job. And then if I or somebody else, my computer

specialist takes a cruise, which is a real example, took a cruise and we had

trouble accessing video from one of our facilities for purpose of a police

report. I couldn't do anything until he got back. So, that was a place where I

learned that, I had a corner that I was not able to look around. So you got to

have your team ready prepared in place and then know what they're doing. Have

the experience, the certifications, the education to be able to carry out the

function that I expect them to carry.

Doug Camin: MM. Okay. So last question here as we wrap up. advice for other IT

leaders. I'm going to draw one theme that I picked up from you, which is like

your penchant for volunteering for things and to step it up, not being afraid to

raise your hand. But what advice would you have for other leaders and emerging

leaders?

Dr. Michael Barr: Get educated and get educated in things that you don't think

necessarily pertain to your job. If it's an opportunity to go to an accounting

class, do it. It's an opportunity to go to a healthcare convention and learn

about new technologies that are out there. Do it. I mean, those things cost.

They come with resources. But you're not going to be able to fulfill a strategic

role where you're required to know how the world works, if you don't learn how

the world works as you're coming up. So take those opportunities for

professional development to dip your hands in things that you may not want to

do. I mean, like some people, their bread and butter is not sitting up in front

of a group and talking to people. But if you're going to be in a position where

you're expected to lead groups of people, then you need to be able to stand in

front of them and present a plan or, give a status update on something. So, it's

learning those things, growing in those things that, may not be of interest and

scare you a little bit, but you got to step up and learn those if you want to be

in a leadership position.

Doug Camin: Awesome. All right, Mike, thank you so much for investing your time

with us on the podcast today.

Dr. Michael Barr: Thank you. I appreciate it.

Doug Camin: Yeah. So I'm Doug Camin, and we look forward to coming to you on our

next episode of You've Been Heard, the platform for IT leaders.