438-Stop Waiting to Be Invited w/Bill Garcia

Doug Camin: Welcome back to today's episode of the You've Been Heard IT
Leadership podcast. I'm your host, Doug Camin. And today I am talking with Bill
Garcia, the vice president of information technology for T Mike Corporation
Americas. Welcome to the show, Bill.

Bill Garcia: Thank you. Thank you very much for having me.

Doug Camin: Yes. All right. so Bill, tell us a little bit about what T Mike does
to start. And we'll get into talking about you and your history and stuff
because this is a leadership podcast. We want to talk about we want to talk
about you, but we always kind of want to know who we're talking to and what
they're doing right now.

Bill Garcia: Yeah. So I think, in a word, it's changed and adaptability and,
updating from the organization to our processes to governance to systems. So we
have been a successful company from the start, but with, a reasonable rate of
growth. But lately the growth exploded. So the company needed someone who came
and transformed the IT organization to be aligned with the new reality of the
business and that includes upskilling, reskilling our people, training them,
changing the governance that we were using for many, many years to adapt to the
new world and adapting to the new commercials and the new challenges of a
company that duplicated in revenue in the last very few years and is on its path
to do the same again in the next few. So we needed to become a new IT
organization as the company is doing itself in every front. So we needed to
adapt quickly to prepare for the new world, to catch up on cybersecurity, cyber
protection, information security for the most part, and catch up on our ERP
environments. The twenty year old environment that needed to refresh into the
new era. And most importantly, take advantage of AI to catch up on the new
technologies. being able from every perspective, from data to protection to
regulation to people skills, etc., to be up to speed with the new challenges.
Now we're in industrial services company and we provide technology to our
customers. So we also need not only to refresh our internal technology, but to
continue incorporating technology into our products and services. So that was a
very comprehensive, a challenge that, was practically my mandate from day one.

Doug Camin: Yeah. so I'm the CTO at a mental health nonprofit. and I'm leading
here because you mentioned about ERP and I was looking at you deployed an
Oracle, I think Oracle fusion you mentioned. So I'm working with a different
Oracle product, which is NetSuite. And so, we just finished a NetSuite
deployment. and it took a while because we did everything deployment. So we did
ERP, CRM, the workforce management time keeping solution, the payroll. We did it
all, all at once. And man, it was a lift I mean, any ERP project is always a
lift. So I don't want to dismiss an ERP project, but we took on six different
tasks all at once. And it took us, it took us a good, eighteen to twenty four
months to get from conceptualization to finish. And we're still in the process
of I call it the settling phase. you've gone live, but now you're kind of
tweaking it to make it what you want. it's been a real challenge. How did you,
tell us a little about your experience, in the implementation side of that.

Bill Garcia: Yeah, it is a very impactful activity and project because in our
case, it was not only to move into a new environment, the cloud based or
execution, but also implementing Oracle in the manufacturing operations, which
was, full of Excel and paper and a dot net applications here and there and a
bunch of, things interacting. And, we needed to move forward into something that
for some users is more complex because it asks for more information and it
disrupts in the beginning, their daily operation, right? It's only down the road
that they realize the amount of information that they were capturing is now
useful, and useful. So the change management that goes in it, the effort, the
training, it's massive. In addition, I said we're bringing manufacturing to the
US. So last year we launched a new plant in Katy, Texas. And this year we're
launching a second plant that is double the previous one in size. And it's not
only the ERP front, it's the business transformation that is happening across
the board and aligning all the participants in the project, which are mostly
people from the business. Even though we have a big team from our IT
organization coaching and helping and doing everything the testing, the design,
the participation needs to come from the business people that are very busy
producing stuff and also migrating to a new productive environment on its own.
So it's been a very hectic couple of years and likely to continue like that
because we are finishing phase one with the scope of manufacturing. And phase
two will complete the ERP migration for that division, and phase three will take
it to the rest of the company. And so we're doing it in a aggressive time frames
a while. Everything else is getting transformed as well.

Doug Camin: Well that's awesome. So let's talk a little about your professional
history. So leadership podcast. Our listeners love to know the backgrounds of
the people that are coming up, so we have you both your peers and people who are
listening here that are, in the space and thinking about what's their first
leadership role and stuff like that. Tell us about your history, the things
you've done and how you moved through that to, one role to the next and how you,
develop your portfolio of experience to get you to where you are today.

Bill Garcia: Yeah. So I think a very significant experience was in the
beginning, I start my career as a consultant. I started with Accenture, a
Andersen consulting at the time, and later Andersen Business Consulting and
started doing business process re-engineering. So even though I studied in
information systems engineering, I started doing process work, understanding
processes, re-engineering the processes. Before I got into the implementation of
SAP and other ERPs. So I had the chance to not only understand the businesses,
but also see what was wrong with them, what needed fixing and improving. So that
went on for eight years. I grew up in Colombia and this was in Colombia. I had
projects in Colombia with the oil and gas companies in Argentina, Mexico and
some in the US at the time. It was eight years of very intense consulting work
and doing this kind of activity. So that was, really, forming a experience and
something that opened my mind to process improvement and the why of the systems.
what are the systems doing? And are we just, in paving roads, all roads or
really building superhighways as it was described at the time. So that's where
it started. And then I moved to the US in nineteen ninety nine to work with
General Motors. This was Delphi Corporation, a spinoff of General Motors. They
were going through the spin offs and needed to separate it out from the GM
operations. So a lot of learning went on that one as well, because we needed to
duplicate and recreate a lot of systems processes, understand what was going on.
And, with them, I was a leader of the business applications and the ERP
implementation for that division. And after that, I've been in several
industries, consumer products with SC Johnson Dana Incorporated in Automotive, a
corporation with electric company, a holding of electric distribution generation
companies. So it's been a varied environment, several different, experiences and
tools and companies and, challenges. But, for the most part in it, but in two
occasions I was a COO of startup companies, one in New York for a financial real
estate company for a couple of years. And prior to that, also doing a major
transformation at a family owned company that was in trouble at the time because
the Chinese imports started coming to the country. This was Colombia and really
impacted the business model. So that's when I really understood what the
business leaders deal with beyond IT and processes.

Doug Camin: And so I want to dive in a little bit on, you know, you mentioned
you were a COO for a little while and that was a bit of a startup business. what
different skills did you need to do that role as opposed to being the IT leader
role?

Bill Garcia: Yeah. So I think in my experience, the COO is the master of all
trades and they need to know a little bit of everything. In the beginning of my
career I was involved with process engineering. And this was process across the
board for banks, oil and gas industries, insurance companies. So I don't see a
lot of what goes on behind the back office and middle office and the front
office and the relationship of that and the flows of documents and processes,
etc. so the COO, in a way, the CIO is also like that, but probably more the COO,
more broad in a more broad sense, is an orchestra director. It's, looking for
that talent that will take care of the specific needs. I think playing different
instruments, the people and the director of the orchestra makes sure that things
are playing well together. And they have the right individuals and the right
level and the right playing the right instruments. So it was more, putting it
simple. The orchestrator of what goes on in terms of operations and what happens
in a company beyond marketing and sales, which is the parts that the COO in my
case didn't manage.

Doug Camin: Yeah. So it's funny you mentioned about COO has to be the person who
knows all trades. And I think one of the common jokes I was making in our ERP
implementation at my job, as I'm sitting on a meeting with one of my project
managers in the PMO office and, we're working through a payroll file to get the
payroll project done. And we're doing more than project management, we have
pushed down into the work because there wasn't capacity on some of the teams. So
we're helping them out by drawing in two payroll files from the old system and
the new system, and working on the tie outs to get the import ready for the, the
year to date data loads and stuff. And, I made the joke to my folks about how it
is always the thing that IT inevitably has to learn a system somewhere, I think
the really classic joke was if it plugged into the wall, it's problem. but I
think about how much been the business process space it ends up having, if you
want successful it, you have to know more than just orchestrating it. And it's
not uncommon depending on the size and scale of your organization, you have to
push in. I mean, I work mostly in the mid market. You've worked in large
enterprise, but in the mid market, it's not uncommon to have to push down and
into the space to do a lot of the work at different times.

Bill Garcia: Absolutely. You need to know how to play the instruments as well.
And most of them but you need to know enough to be able to select the right
people to play in those roles, guide them and help them. I always tell my teams,
I work for you guys, you are the experts in your trading in your front, in your
area. And I'm here to remove the roadblocks, to make sure that everything plays
together. so I tell them, I not want to say, come to me with the problem and the
solution. I tell them, if you have a problem, come with the problem. I'll help
you figure out the solution because sometimes working together that works better
and I by all means prefer to know what is going on early rather than when we
need to get into troubleshooting. So definitely we need to be involved, be in
the details. But it's impossible to be in the details of everything. So
sometimes your job focuses more on where the problems are and other times where
the opportunities are to provide guidance on. And I also joke with my team that
the guys that never give me problem get forgotten. So I make a conscious
decision to meet with them as well. Those areas that are working like clockwork
because they also need attention. And sometimes there are opportunities to
improve what is going on there. And definitely as the person on top of
everything that is going on and accountable for everything that is happening, I
need to see the big picture, the full picture, but also what goes in every area
at a decent level of detail.

Doug Camin: Yeah. And I'm glad you're kind of steering into where I was going to
go next, which is, leadership philosophy. You mentioned about the reaching out
to the teams, even the ones that are that are humming along. You got to be
careful because if these people are drawing your attention, you don't ignore the
other pieces and the people that are there. And I think that's a really critical
leadership quality that gets missed a lot. And people forget about that because
they're. They get. Especially if it's super busy, you get really focused on
problem solving and then It's hard to take that step back and go up to the next
level and say, hey, don't forget, you have this role that operates at the higher
plane above everyone else. And so you have to stop and think about what's going
on there too.

Bill Garcia: Absolutely. Definitely.

Doug Camin: Yeah. So, what is some of the key differences that you've seen
between how, business slash it slash, the engagement works from where you were
from to the United States. What did you have to learn that was different? What
made you scratch your head and be what are you people doing here? Type of thing
and stuff.

Bill Garcia: Yeah, I think that's an important question. And, start early
working in an international company, Accenture, with people from the US and many
other countries. I participated in a project in Argentina that had two hundred
and fifty consultants from all over the world. And that's an incredible cultural
experience. But then recently, when I started here, this Japanese company, I was
very curious. I had worked with Asian companies before, but not as closely as
this time. And I took a training on culture and, I was very surprised to see how
the different cultures influence the way you behave. And I had seen it by
experience, but it was very good to see it in the paper and in a survey and in
an assessment. And I realized that the Colombian culture, the Japanese culture
is in one side of the spectrum in terms of respect and hierarchies and
collaboration and individuality and everything. The US is at the other end of
the spectrum.

Doug Camin: Yeah.

Bill Garcia: And I realized that if one is, in every of those aspects. The US is
fine. Let's say Colombia is two all across. So I realized that the culture I
grew up in, was closer to Japan. So I said, okay, this is going to be easier for
me than for the usual American. I thought, then I started thinking my challenges
when I was starting and understanding the culture in the US. So definitely
something to pay attention to. Definitely something that trainings, awareness
trainings help with because there are completely different ways of thinking
about accountability, about the directness, the communication and to the,
language barriers. And it's a completely different world. So it keeps you on
your toes and you need to be paying attention. When I remember years ago when I
started, it was not that you would throw a badly written email to a ChatGPT and
get it. Well, I had to write my emails several times with Google and
dictionaries, and because I wanted to make it right and make sure that the
communication was right. The advantage I think I had is my way of thinking, and
my way of acting, even for Columbia standards, was very similar to what the
American culture is. I'm more individualistic in a way, and more competitive and
direct in my speech and things. So that helped. But it's a mix. And for everyone
it's different. But my advice to anyone moving to a different culture is pay
attention to those classes and theories because they teach you, they really show
you and open your eyes. communication is the most important skill that you can
have in any role. And we're seeing it now with AI. Now it's not communication
between people, it's communication with machines. And that plays a very
important role as you say things, but also how you understand them, how you
challenge. You need critical thinking, even to talk to an AI because you need to
question it and don't believe everything that it tells you. I think the cultural
aspects of life augmented and more impactful. So, pay attention to the
communication. And that works across the board for any discipline and role.

Doug Camin: Yeah. I'm actually really glad that you shared that insight. I've
probably interviewed, I mean, we have, over four hundred episodes on the podcast
and I've probably done maybe forty of them myself. And, whenever I've talked to
somebody whether they're based in a foreign country or they've immigrated or
another common one is folks who spent multiple years abroad, and then they came
back and I hear about one of the things that you're the first one person who's
really drawn a very clear distinction to say that's the culture. the culture of
Colombia was actually more aligned with the culture of Japan, which made you
more comfortable. you had this intrinsic understanding of how to navigate their
differences in culture, which made you surprisingly comfortable. And that was
super insightful. So I just wanted to really surface that was awesome. So
shifting a little bit into the personal side here, could you share something,
not technical that's about you that people may not know.

Bill Garcia: Well, I think, something that could sound interesting. I, was born
in the US, I grew up in Colombia. I just stayed here the first year. My dad was
a university professor. That's why I was born here. But I grew up in Colombia.
Then I moved to Buenos Aires for projects. Bogota, which was not my hometown. I
had projects in Mexico and in the US, but then when I moved to the US, I really
experienced Change and what change was. I started my career in El Paso, Texas at
the Delphi. Operation there, I used to commute to the Mexico operation every
day.

Doug Camin: Yeah.

Bill Garcia: And. But then after that. And in twenty plus years, I've lived in
ten different cities in the United States.

Bill Garcia: Because of work. And that has given me a, unique experience,
knowing cultures because within the US, you also find absolutely different
cultures and way of thinking. I lived in Texas, moved to Michigan, in Detroit,
then Atlanta, Virginia, New York, new Jersey, Ohio, Milwaukee, and most recently
in Houston, Texas, which I love. After coming from Milwaukee, the heat here in
Houston is refreshing for me.

Doug Camin: Yeah. That's wild. Yeah. So that's a great segue into some other
topics of conversation, which is about AI. we never really escape in it, a
discussion about the state of things without talking a little bit, at least
about where AI is. So where are you seeing that intersect with your business and
where how are you starting to leverage it?

Bill Garcia: Yeah. So that was a big mandate for me when I started. We needed to
catch up internally, but also externally. We're a technology services company as
well, and we are working on improving our offering both in services and products
with AI. so we have and we had a lot of catch up to do, but we needed to start
from the beginning from cleaning the data, making sure that the data was right.
but even more importantly or equally importantly, the governance aspects of it.
We wanted control. I usually equate these two to the guardrails or the train
tracks. And I always say that governance are those train tracks that allow you
to move fast. And that's where we have been doing, is making sure that we can
run that. We can move very fast without derailing and without making big
mistakes. So we're protecting first the company, the data, what we do, our
processes, and then implementing AI. So so we're big on that. I think in these
last two years, we have matured significantly. I could say for what I'm. My
discussions with other companies and friends and colleagues that we have moved
fast and we are ahead of the curve. And we will never stay ahead if we don't
continue moving fast. And I'm not comparing to others, I'm comparing to
ourselves. We are constantly moving, improving, and getting ready for what is
next. We have started projects that had to redirect in a different direction
because we realized one year after Into a project that. The conditions of the
world have changed and the. Tools available have changed. Nothing to do with
making the wrong decision in the beginning, but having to do with the fact that
now you can start something. But you constantly need to question if your
direction is still right, or if you need to redirect your efforts in another
direction. And that's what we have been doing, I think, so far successfully. But
there's a lot more to do, and there's always a catch up in terms of skills and,
available resources and, there's no lack of ideas, but, how do you execute them?
And it's not only a matter of throwing money at the problem is having the right
resources to lead the right projects to align with the business, to prioritize
what you're doing versus what they live in their day to day. So it's a
challenge, but it's a very exciting challenge, I believe.

Doug Camin: so in my organization, we work in the mental health space and a lot
of not quite clinical service delivery. So it's not clinics on the corner you go
to, but we work with a lot of different entities, school kids and those types of
stuff and providing support services. So what we found was I did a collaborative
learning project in which we did a pilot, we found, pulled together staff of
we're largely, we don't manufacture things. We're a deliverer of services, try
to identify the places where that stuff could really be helpful for us as best
as possible. in terms of these types of support staff can, I think there's
almost two levels or maybe three right now of AI deployments. You've got the,
support style types of AI. So things what we're using here on this call right
now, Zoom's AI tools that'll summarize and do things. So those productivity
enhancement tools for individuals and their basis. Can I go to ChatGPT and
summarize the emails and look at my inbox and do the thing and then we've got
agents and other stuff, that are working to help us, achieve tasks, but do it
autonomously. So whether that's low code, no code or vibe coding types of stuff,
those are the spaces that we were starting to see, much more in the first one
than the second one because it's hard to build an agent to talk to children, but
I had a team that was actually a part of our research team, that's building,
they're trying to build what amounts to a chatbot for, mental health discussion
or mental health evaluation and stuff. So in your organization, where are you?
have you pushed in manufacturing and stuff AI to help with the manufacturing
process and things?

Bill Garcia: Yeah. You mentioned a few examples that are typical. And we also
went through that. We created a chatbot first, and then later we realized that
we created a chatbot that would speak to a certain, folder or body of knowledge,
if you will. And then if we wanted to create another to replicate that solution,
we would need to replicate the whole thing. So we realized, okay, now we need to
do to think multi-tenant. And how do we avoid the spillover of information from
one category to the next? And so a lot of work on the chatbots, the assistants,
and we went through that process and are now in that second generation, that is
something more robust and more transferable and reusable. We also worked with
them and for our products. We're working on predictive analytics, and we have
very good products on that front, and we're advancing fast and on those fronts.
And we have a few solutions to show and that are becoming part of our offering.
and now we're entering that next stage, which we're seeing that, okay, we move
very fast in silos, kind of in silos. The chatbot wants one solution and maybe
other three chatbots where their own solutions, the predictive analytics side of
things, the agents that we started experimenting with And, some activity on the
accounts payable side and things like that. And now we're realizing that we need
to create that baseline, that body of knowledge that AI will feed from that is
different than the usual databases. So traditionally we talked about databases
structured and unstructured, and later came the PDFs and the document management
systems with a lot of, proposals, RFP responses to RFP contracts and everything.
you can think of resumes and information that is in documents that AI can now in
many ways read. But we want something that is accessible, but not only that, but
something that is vetted and that is cleaned and that is, appropriate and,
available. So And that's another front. Then you have several tools like
ticketing. Tools in ServiceNow and or Mozilla and all kinds of tools that store
incidents and. Problem management and root cause analysis, trouble solving
tickets. and that's another full. Body of knowledge. Then you have the emails
and meetings and meeting notes. And so AI is giving us access. Way beyond the
structure and non-structured data that you had in databases before. But the most
important one is people. It's the individuals that have been in the company
twenty, twenty five, thirty years, and they are about to retire. they're leaving
the company with their knowledge. And we realized, okay, it's about time that we
start collecting that knowledge, putting it somewhere. So we're working on that
framework and the body of knowledge that will represent everything that the
company does and has done and wants to do. So we have a reliable source of
information to run the agents against, but also in your assistance and to enable
automation in a way always under a premise. And I insist on this every time I
talk about AI. I talk about intelligent augmentation, rather than artificial
intelligence. And I want to make the distinction because I believe the human in
the loop is a critical factor of success. I would avoid for as long as I can to
let agents run on their own without that type of monitoring, because I think AI
should augment our intelligence and not replace it.

Doug Camin: So you sparked some thoughts for me there about building agents,
especially when people are leaving. And I was thinking about documentation and
how often do you go to somebody who's been there for ten, fifteen, twenty years
and you say, hey, I need you to spend the last six months you're here writing
down what you do, putting it all in some, sort of, repository. And how often
does that information just sit on inaccessible, functionally inaccessible
because it's so deep and dense, nobody can get into it to truly understand it.
they're oh, they left all these notes, but they left I know it's not a binder of
stuff, but let's just say it's a wiki through SharePoint, right? And it's got
fifty pages of information in it. How do you know which one to go find in the
moment that you need? And that's where I think some of these agents and these
chatbots and all this other stuff are really going to start shining to help, if
you can build the foundational data to feed into it, it's going to really help
you be able to do something with it.

Bill Garcia: Yeah, absolutely. There are unlimited possibilities there because
now you can have in addition to the information that is structured, information
that the person will leave will prepare for you, etc., you can have that person
sit down with a chatbot and say, okay, I have five hundred questions here before
you retire. answer to this. And every, fifty, you get an incentive or a bonus
and you can identify. Provide incentives because otherwise some people will say,
okay, I'm leaving, I'm tired and I'm ready to go. But if you give them a sense,
a game to play and a way of, also making a difference for your company and for
yourself that might also work and it can be made fun and it could be an
interaction with an agent that, knows what to ask or how to organize the
information at all.

Doug Camin: Awesome. Thanks. All right. So I'm going to shift to, I started
calling this the lightning round. so if you could fix one big challenge in IT
leadership tomorrow, what would it be?

Bill Garcia: I think for the IT industry as a whole, the credibility gap, I
think many IT leaders speak technology fluently but business poorly. And it cost
them the seat at the table. for me, right now I would say it's the talent
and skills gap. the first one is related to communications and how you convey
and communicate and translate the needs of the business into technology and your
solutions into the impact that the business will get out of it. And other big
challenges catching up with cybersecurity challenges and AI opportunities. That
opportunity is enormous on its own and especially when you have to do it while
sustaining the operation, keeping the lights on and evolving the landscape, it
almost becomes a hero's journey to, do those extra things that are the most
important ones. Cyber security and AI and talent. If your organization doesn't
have the right talent, everything else stalls. So strategy, governance, AI, all
of it depends on the people who can execute.

Doug Camin: That's a lot of challenges. so I really think this one's salient for
you because you've occupied not just the CIO role, I think I if I'm describing
it right, an it PMO role, COO roles, what do most CIOs get wrong that you think
is obvious?

Bill Garcia: I believe it's the communication part.

Bill Garcia: I think it's not speaking the business language. I think, something
everyone needs to understand is the IT leader needs to stop waiting to be
invited, and the CEOs must stop treating it as a service desk with a budget. but
you need to be up to the challenge. you need to be able to have the
conversations sit down and explain. Not in technical lingo, in business, words
what you're doing, what you are trying to achieve, what you see in the future
entails, and what you need to do to really support growth. the sustained part of
the business, the ongoing support. Keep the lights on. That's a given. that's
not a differentiator. It only shows when there is a problem.

Bill Garcia: Cyber security infrastructure. It's only seen when it breaks. The
real differentiator is how you what you contribute to the business on the top
line. The bottom line, the growth and the productivity improvements.

Doug Camin: Awesome. All right. So Bill, we're coming up to the end of the
podcast. And can you share a little bit about. I'll give you two questions, two
parts to answer here. One, can you share about your leadership philosophy? I
know we touched on that a little bit earlier, but if you could maybe repackage
that and share it. And then also, what advice would you have to give to other IT
leaders from what your lessons are and what you've learned?

Bill Garcia: Yeah. So my philosophy is, I believe CIO is a facilitator, is the
director of the orchestra, as you said before, it needs to know how to play the
instruments. but you're here to help your team If you need a team that knows how
to and what they need to do. You're here to provide the vision, the path and
help them redirect on that and help and remove obstacles for them. I think
that's my philosophy. it has worked well. It's not always understood, I guess,
but it's my philosophy. Otherwise you would be a very, really distracted with
the, day to day and not paying attention to the most important customer of yours
is. And those are your CEO, your CFO, your business leaders. You need to be the
translator of the business needs to the IT solutions and vice versa. so that's
my philosophy. And I think in terms of advice, I always think of, a challenge.
And I mentioned briefly about change, and I think the continuous small successes
over a long period of time are one of the most dangerous things that can happen
to you and your company because you may get complacent and you may not challenge
your current ways. And with AI and the world we live in right now, you need to
be a challenger. You need to become a challenger. You cannot be comfortable with
sustaining business. You still need to do it, but you need to be at the
forefront of the conversation, looking for what is changing, the business is
needing, and you need to be leading that transformation for your company.

Doug Camin: Thank you. So what advice would you have for emerging or up and
coming leaders that they should, you've been in this business for twenty, thirty
years and, a leader of it for at least twenty. somebody coming up in the ranks
here, what advice do you have for them?

Bill Garcia: The right skills are the basis are the foundation and you need them
and you need to refresh them. But the most important skills are the soft skills
are the communication, understanding of the culture, making, sure that the
message is going across and being understood is not only communicating and
saying things, it's also making sure that it's understood and making sure that
you understand what the business needs. So communication, soft skills are the
skills of the new world and generation and any career. And that's what will make
every career survive. The hard skills are extremely important, but some of them
are commodity. You cannot source them. You can leverage them. You can delegate
them to an AI in many cases. But the soft skills will always be. There will be
important even to interact with technology. So pay attention to that. Don't
forget the culture, making sure the message goes across and, going back to
basics and embrace it.

Doug Camin: Awesome. Well, Bill, thank you so much for investing your time with
us on the podcast today.

Bill Garcia: Of course. Thank you. Douglas. It was great.

Doug Camin: Yeah. So that's a wrap on today's episode of You've Been Heard, the
platform for IT leaders. I'm Doug Camin, and we look forward to coming to you on
our next episode.